Author Topic: Northshore Trail Closures  (Read 2613 times)

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Offline alf

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2017, 02:08:41 PM »
- Start at the coal face (ie - the responsible officer or RO). Don't involve the RO's boss until the RO fails to deliver, from there email the RO to 'follow up' and CC the boss.
The PV playbook on this, from what I have observed, is that the RO presents as the sympathetic good guy claiming that he is under instructions from his boss not to discuss that point or is not authorised to make that decision. The RO's boss would have been expected to attend the meeting but couldn't at the last minute so all issues raised are left to wither away and die.


Offline CKaos

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2017, 03:45:53 PM »
An FOI request would be the perfect kick off for many issues.

In regards to your experience Alf, that is a sign of an organisation with retarded (meant in the literal rather than metaphoric context) progress.  It was common 15 -20 years ago in public departments, but most that practice in this way have had a ministerial review come through and weed out the backward leadership. First of all, get the email address of the person who stood you up if possible (I probably have her address from previous unrelated matters).  Document the event by way of a followup email, now addressed to the boss and CC'd to the RO, that explains that your matter is still outstanding and you expect to met with the boss in a reasonable time frame.  The boss is now the RO, but the process hasn't changed.  Everyone has someone they must answer to - if you aren't getting anywhere, send an email to the RO and ask who they report to, as you wish to escalate the matter.  You may not get a response, but no response makes great reading for the bosses boss once you finally track them down, or your local MP.  I deal with up to 3 EWOV (ombudsmen) referrals a week - you can't duck them if you are the nominated RO, and your prior actions will be scrutinized from outside of your organisation.

I find that 90% of my time goes into managing 5% of my workload.  That is the stubborn 5% that get off their but, and cause a stink.  Of them 90% do no research, so they get shut down very quickly and present very little risk to me. The remaining 10% (ie 0.05%) consume heaps of time.  That is how I learn - because I have to spend 2 days trawling through public documents to justify my actions.  One of 2 things normally occur from here, I either adjust my position to one that is defensible or I bail out and give them the concession / exemption they are after. If just 10 readers of this forum all become part of PV's 0.05%, they will be run off their feet and all develop a drinking problem within a week (at least that's my excuse).

I haven't looked in depth into where PV derive the 'power' in relation to MTB matters within the park (probably a question for the brother or sister in law next time I catch up), but below is some information for those that have a bit of patience and time at their disposal.  Have a look on the PV website for documents related to management strategies for the various parks that have an MTB interest.  Compare documented strategies between the various parks, then use your knowledge of each park to find examples of where the same strategy has been managed differently between the parks (remembering / considering context provided by all the associated overlays).  Check what acts are referenced in those documents then go to www.legislation.vic.gov.au and download a copy of those rule books.

There are rules relating to the hierarchy of these various documents. 

Generally speaking, commonwealth trumps state.
- An Act is 'the law' but is expressed in very broad and awkward terms. If one says you can do something and another says you can't, one will be subservient to the other,  so it loses.
- Regulations are the outworking of acts and use language closer to lay terms. There will be provision and process embedded within the document to seek exemption - but it is unlikely you will get it.  If PV wish to gain exemption, they need to do exactly the same thing as we do - but they are seen to have 'resource and capacity' to manage exceptions, where as you or I would need to demonstrate that we have resource and capacity. 
- Then there are rules or a code of practice - these are based on historic disputes or reoccurring matters that aren't clear, or aren't specifically detailed in the act or regulations, so the governing body lay down some principles that should be aimed for in most cases.  There is much room to maneuver within such documents, and they will often draw on / refer to associated regulations in order to justify requirements in 'grey areas'. Often the Responsible Officer (possibly PV)will have authority to grant exemption within these documents, but regardless, a pathway for exemption or dispute will be embedded within the document.

It is rare that a single document will cover a single situation.  Have lots of screens open, or print and mark the various documents as you trawl through. Control 'F' in a PDF using key words enables you to scour an entire act in no time.  At work I have many documents that I create that arise from a trawl through all the relevant rules and I just cut and paste everything into a word document titled, for example 'management of risk on public land'.  Break it into digestible subjects rather than trying to get your head around everything at once.  Any time you find something new, or an approach someone else has used, just add it to that document (and reference it).

Offline Andrew

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2017, 07:59:27 PM »
So given we have runs on the board as such...

We have proven that we are a long term stakeholder (8 years of over 10k volunteer hours a year)
18K donated to PV for the park this year....

What do you believe LDTR should expect as achievable and reasonable from PV?

To date, PV have always approved our maintenance activities... They most of the time will organise, deliver raw materials (clean fill ect,ect)
They have been waving the event costs for LDTR (and associated events)
We use there office at Lysty for committee meetings

What should we be asking for? (i have my own ideas but i never have asked "the community") (and I should)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 08:49:43 PM by Andrew »

Offline CKaos

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2017, 08:53:16 PM »
Don't have an answer. If I did, I would be all over this stuff. But I know that the people we have are dedicated, and probably getting a little tired of being presented with token acknowledgement. Should we start on shiny beads and indigenous culture? Well off track??? I know the only way to beat city hall is to learn the game and play by the rules - well directed enthusiasm & passion will beat 'looking after my job' on most days. It's beer o'clock, but it's nice to see some glow in the fire as I relax after a long day.


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Offline Case King

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2017, 09:03:38 PM »
Regarding Indigenous culture, the (outdated) Churchill and Lysterfield lake management plans only reference cultural aboriginal sites in the police paddocks.


ref: http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/313257/Churchill-National-Park-Lysterfield-Park-Plan.pdf

Offline Alistair

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2017, 09:56:26 PM »
As a member all I'm asking is for PV to follow their own guidelines and for the club to ask them why they haven't.

Offline Alistair

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2017, 09:59:37 PM »
Also I think it is hugely cynical of them to play the aboriginal heritage card when all the evidence is that it does not apply here. I am happy to be corrected on that if PV would actually talk to their users instead of issuing threats.

Offline CKaos

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2017, 01:15:12 PM »
Hi all,

I know Andrew has communicated with this forum where a number of key issues are at with the committee, but are the committee in a position to advise what steps can be taken by individual MTBrs to push these issues to a place where PV are forced to act or defend their historic actions?

There is no point pushing a barrow if we are just pushing further into the mud!

CK

Offline Andrew

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2017, 01:40:01 PM »
So CK...

Do anything....

Contact your local state member...

Contact the rangers...

Dig a new trail...

Let me know what you want....

Write it up on every forum... stay outraged.... get other people involved...do anything...
Don't let it go...

Offline Alistair

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2017, 02:50:06 PM »
I've emailed the chief ranger and will follow up with the FOI if I don't hear anything by Wednesday.

Offline Andrew

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2017, 02:56:12 PM »
Good Job Al,

Out of interest, what did you email him? and keep us updated!

Also what is the level of engagement you expect PV to provide LDTR?

What should we be pushing for?
(I really am interested in what everyone thinks PV should be doing)

Offline Alistair

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2017, 03:03:18 PM »
Hi Darren,
I think we have met at one of the ldtr working groups, I am just a club member these days.

Regarding your decision to close all trails in the northern extension, are you able to provide any detail as to the reasons why? Your signs are very generic, so would you be able to forward detail of the assessments​ that were carried out in determining safety, environmental and aboriginal heritage for each of the closed trails?

I would be grateful if you could also provide some detail of how you have applied Parks Vic's own guidelines for MTB on public lands in this case.

I thought I would contact you first before resorting to an FOI , which I'm assuming would be more work for all of us.
Regards
Alistair

Offline neb

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2017, 11:32:56 PM »
Hey Guys,

I just wanted to say thanks for all your posts.

My OCD wants to reply to every point in this thread but that's a bit beyond me now...three pages in:)

Rest assured I've requested a meeting with senior PV management, and this request has been granted. I'm simply waiting for the committee to get back to me on when they are available. To date only two committee members have got back to me and none of whom are posting in this thread....

Yes I did register with PV our dissatisfaction with their plans to close the northern trails, from memory I was told on the Friday before the contractors went in, during a phone call. In hindsight I should have done this in writing, but hey you live and learn.

I've seen PV do this twice before but this was definitely done with more effort than before, I've also never heard of them actively patrolling the area issuing fines, until now. I'm pretty frustrated that in the case of Red Hill - for example - for many years they had a WHOLE park of illegal trails, with no fines being issued but in our case they are... this tends to suggest their bible is being interpreted differently by each Range in Charge.... much like life really!

Ben





Offline ctguru

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2017, 10:00:13 AM »
Great discussion guys


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Offline CKaos

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Re: Northshore Trail Closures
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2017, 01:31:47 PM »

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