Author Topic: Repairs  (Read 1520 times)

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Offline Nate

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Repairs
« on: May 11, 2017, 09:43:17 PM »
If anyone is bored tomorrow evening, I will be out at Aneurysm from about 4pm-6:30pm repairing the damages to the trail caused by whoever felt the urge to modify the features. Will start from the top and will have shovels with me.

Our trail build is still on this Saturday at 8am from the PV yard just above Skills Park.

Cheers,
Nate - Head Trail Builder
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Offline AndrewB

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2017, 12:18:38 PM »
Hi Nate,
So a few notes on Aneurysm , can you please fill in any gap jumps, lysterfield seems to be the only place that does them, yes you may like them but generally everyone is better off with a table top no matter which way it is built, it will feel exactly the same to you jumping it but add other options to all the other riders out there.
The small bumps at the very top of Aneurysm i guess you would call them feature 2 & 3 in the new berms are terrible, no other way to put it, they need to be converted to a table top or change them so they can be rolled over better. same as the similar small jumps near the end of the track, they just don't flow.

The new gap jumps on comm games decent seem to be claiming a few casualties too, i've had one mate bust an arm on it. some of the new features you are putting in are great if you hit them 100% spot on, get them wrong and the consequences are bad at such high speed. Once again would be better for everyone if the gap was filled in or the landing removed as its on a decent anyway.
Love the work on the switchback decent however.

Happy to discuss further.

i wont be coming to help as arm in a sling from Aneurysm on saturday but thats a different story and my own dumb fault.  ::)


Offline Nate

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2017, 12:44:38 PM »
Hi Nate,
So a few notes on Aneurysm , can you please fill in any gap jumps, lysterfield seems to be the only place that does them, yes you may like them but generally everyone is better off with a table top no matter which way it is built, it will feel exactly the same to you jumping it but add other options to all the other riders out there.
The small bumps at the very top of Aneurysm i guess you would call them feature 2 & 3 in the new berms are terrible, no other way to put it, they need to be converted to a table top or change them so they can be rolled over better. same as the similar small jumps near the end of the track, they just don't flow.

The new gap jumps on comm games decent seem to be claiming a few casualties too, i've had one mate bust an arm on it. some of the new features you are putting in are great if you hit them 100% spot on, get them wrong and the consequences are bad at such high speed. Once again would be better for everyone if the gap was filled in or the landing removed as its on a decent anyway.
Love the work on the switchback decent however.

Happy to discuss further.

i wont be coming to help as arm in a sling from Aneurysm on saturday but thats a different story and my own dumb fault.  ::)
Hi Andrew,
Won't be able to take care of everything you've suggested in the 2 hours today.

Both Aneurysm and the State MTB course are classifiesd as black diamond trails and therefore the "gap" features on the trail are perfectly adequate for that rating.

The small bumps up the top of the newer section on Aneurysm are useful for those that want a little air when just coming out of the berms. To make them a table top would be highly unnecessary due to the lack of speed and space available. A tabletop would make no difference to the gap inbetween those sized bumps.

Along Aneurysm there are b lines for almost all the major "gap" features including the three doubles down the bottom and the hip jump midway. If taken at the correct speed, these are perfect for manualling or rolling instead of treating them as a gap.

In terms of the gap features on the State MTB course, these are also suitable for this rating of track. Yes, you have to commit to hit them correctly, but they are also fine for manualling and rolling. These are perfectly in line with the standards for a black diamond. Injuries are a factor of mountain biking, it is an extreme sport after all. If the state mtb course was classified as a green trail, of course this feature would not be suitable for this speed capable on the trail.
We have had riders who have found them to be "risky", but those riders have also gradually grown their confidence since and have managed to tackle the gap features on the state mtb course and now love them (me being one of those people).
As head trail builder it is one of my roles to make sure everyone/ability of rider is catered for. We have plenty of table top/rollable features at lysterfield already and to make the newly added gap features on the state mtb course would be to "dumb the trail down" in a way so to speak. Gap features are a part of mountain biking and just another area for riders to work on and improve towards with their skills


Regards,
Nate.


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Offline AndrewB

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2017, 01:03:00 PM »
I am by no means new to this, just a bit of feedback which I hope you'll take into consideration when changing tracks, not all work has been for the better.


Cheers
Andrew

Offline Nate

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2017, 01:12:15 PM »
No worries, i recognise your name but can't seem to find it on our volunteer sheets for any of our builds. Always happy for the feedback on trails though, we do take it on board :)

Cheers

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Offline Brossie (Tim)

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 04:01:19 PM »
Quite interesting observation here. As an advanced rider, I personally love the gap jumps we have at Lysty. I like that all of the main MTB parks around Melbourne have gap jumps.

The two trails you have mentioned are clearly advertised as black trails. I feel that it is every riders personal responsibility to ride a trail at their own ability. A sensible rider will also ride a new trail with caution on their first run. If there are features that are beyond that riders ability, the rider should use caution, either slowing down to roll over the gap jump, or using the b line.

There is a great skills park at lysty that allows riders to grow their confidence with gaps, table and berms. Again, it is every riders responsibility to 'up skill' themselves in a safe environment, before attempting to the features out on the trails.

Filling in the gaps is not fair to the riders that have the ability and confidence to successfully ride these features.

Tim
Keep Rollin' Rollin' Rollin.

Offline CKaos

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2017, 05:53:30 PM »
Hi

I have never been a fan of gap jumps.  I worked 6 seasons as a pro ski patroller and disliked them there also.  They require way too much commitment!! It annoyed me no end when the doubles were installed on the CGT descent, it added 20 seconds to my Strava lap time.

That said, as Nate has already mentioned, I have found myself gradually extending myself and working up though increasingly more difficult doubles that I had previously 'B' lined with an aim to recover those 20 seconds I lost.

I still don't like doubles, give me a fat table top any day.  But I fully support Nate's rationale for why they should be there.

1/ its a black diamond rated trail
2/ the most common criticism of Lysterfield from both locals and visiting riders is the lack of technical feature / challenge
3/ get in and get dirty when the features are being built, you will be able to offer your opinion to shape the trail at the critical moment (I love my tame little table top on Redgum down just before you cross Lamberts)
4/ if you can't ride it as a double, slow down, 'B' line it or HTFU and learn to either clear it or manual it

At least that's my opinion ???

CK




Offline Andrew

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2017, 09:10:07 PM »
I haven't ridden the trail under question (i will tomorrow),
but am very qualified to weigh in to the Gap Jumps Vs Tables debate.

There is no doubt that a table top jump is MORE dangerous than a gap jump, because there is a false sense of security to a table top.
The dangerous part of any jump is the take off...

More serious injury's happened every time LDTR has built a table top.

I look forward to having a go tomorrow and most of all thank Nate and all the volunteers that give there time to make a better trail for us all!

I need to get my trail building karma point back up a bit (see ya soon)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 09:16:00 PM by Andrew »

Offline Nate

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2017, 09:48:10 PM »
The features on Aneurysm have been repaired, but will compact lower than original shape of the sides which were not destroyed. We will return in a few weeks with more dirt if needed.

A general reminder to anyone who thinks building unofficially is ok: Building and altering a trail outside of an official build is not allowed. Not only does it pose a risk to everyone who is unaware of the changes, it causes issues with drainage and also impacts the standards that we are improving in the trail network at Lysterfield Park. Many features on the trails are there for a reason whether it be a clear or indirect reason. There are more committed builders than trail destroyers in the world. Your saftey, strava time and happiness will not improve by half destroying features just because you have an opinion on one aspect of a feature. 2 volunteers spent a couple of hours repairing rollers today which could have been spent more wisely. The last thing we need is to set up more hidden cameras around the park (😂😉)

Cheers,
Nate.
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Online neb

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2017, 11:09:02 PM »
Great work Nate, it's really unfortunate people are taking it upon themselves to alter a trail to suit their abilities.

Andrew B - From day dot I've jumped the small rollers at the top and bottom of Aneurism, there is nothing terrible about them.
Re the gap jumps on SMBC - To the untrained eye they are a gap jump. They are in fact 1. A Drain 2. A Roller and 3. A gap jump for advanced riders. Isn't it great to have a feature that actually beats you in the park? One that takes you months to conquer? Or should the whole park just take 50% effort all the time?

Anecdotal evidence of one mate injuring themselves isn't enough to modify a trail that was build by a professional builder mind you (not LDTR). The You Yangs gets more ambulance call outs then Lysterfield (per capita) does that mean they should flatten the whole park? The Hero trail in Bright has claimed some casualties.. the solution? They put a sign at the top saying - In summary "Ride at your own risk".not a single feature has changed and good on them for holding their ground.

At what point do we need to take responsibility for our own actions? MTB riding is dangerous, if you can't handle that fact then perhaps a bike path is better suited for those people.

Ben


Offline CKaos

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2017, 08:12:15 PM »
Can't agree that a tabletop poses more risk than a double, or gap jump. Serious injury occurs when you have 'a compression'. In other words, it is harder to control (if you stay on) and hurts more (if you come off) when you land flat, or worse, hit an 'opposing face' than when the landing is down hill. Not anecdotal, in medicine it's referred to as mechanism of injury and is supported by simple physics. In my experience, having attended many 'wrecks' as a ski patroller, motor cycle accidents as a paramedic and witnessed MTB stuff ups in both social and racing scenarios, whilst accidents happen for many reasons - normally when a jump is involved, stupidity or bravado are often involved. You can't make a feature 'stupid proof' but you can protect those that are trying to progress in mountain biking from hurting themselves on green & blue trails by creating features (tabletops) that will work at lower speeds. From there people can gain confidence in the air and progress. Doubles only work at very high or very low speeds for the average rider - if you manual them then you pick a speed that suits you.


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Offline mrgibbo

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2017, 02:15:34 PM »
The trails that you are commenting on are Black.

So I don't see the issue that is raised.

If you don't have the confidence or skills required to hit a jump whether it is a double or a table top, don't hit them. 

This is common sense.  And coming from someone who has broken their clavicle (and a couple of ribs) whilst mountain biking around Lysty.

It is a dangerous sport, if you can't do it, or can't handle a little pain, then don't take it up. Stick to commuting on bike paths.

Or so we need to nanny state the world for everyone.


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Offline AndrewB

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2017, 10:51:03 AM »
The trails that you are commenting on are Black.

If you don't have the confidence or skills required to hit a jump whether it is a double or a table top, don't hit them. 


I think my point was missed, the features i talk about were put smack bang in the middle of a good track and no way around them if you choose to.

Doesn't matter anyway now as i'll be off the mtb for 6-12months now after busted shoulder last weekend  :'(

Offline Nate

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2017, 11:23:56 AM »

the features i talk about were put smack bang in the middle of a good track and no way around them if you choose to.


I understand where you're coming from Andrew. You were just simply implying that the features aren't exactly your style of riding and that if you had more of a choice, you would prefer to ride around them if you could or have the trail without obstacles in those spots.
But, just so you are aware, Single Black Diamond trails according to IMBA standards are allowed to have unavoidable obstacles/features that are 15" tall or less. Thus, b lines around these features are not needed and should not be, due the trail being rated black diamond.

Cheers,
Nate.
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Offline Brossie (Tim)

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Re: Repairs
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2017, 11:27:54 AM »
Sorry to hear you are off the bike for so long Andrew. Hope you recover well.
Keep Rollin' Rollin' Rollin.

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