Author Topic: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???  (Read 6874 times)

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Offline Andrew

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Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« on: December 28, 2011, 09:35:33 PM »
So i Just read on Rotorburn that FGP are going to run the dirt crits again in the new year, and MTBO are running there orienteering round this Friday arvo, how do you feel about how LDTR should react....

I'm not sure how i feel about it, but i am interested in hearing people's opinion as you guys are the guys that have done ALL the volunteering out there.... Please don't get up here 'hating' but any constructive input as to how LDTR should react to this would be great....

( I am a bit worried about opening this can of worms, but it had to be opened at some stage  ::) )

Offline blackshw

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 09:41:58 PM »
Sounds like a perfect opportunity to get donations via well placed signage & donation tins (may even pick up a descent sponsor). Also potential to market the trail building (did I mention repair...) days and maybe gain a few extra hands at the next build day...

Online white wheels

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 10:17:32 PM »
I have participated in dirt crits at lysterfield before
Great social quick 25-30 min race
Numbers no more than a social ride
If the crits start again I'll be there and encourage others to have a go lots of fun

Offline lard

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 11:36:07 PM »
I'm fine with events being run, in fact I can't wait for XC races to start again,  but I do think there should be a small % of each entry that goes to help maintain the trails.    There also needs to be a lot more care taken when weather turns bad when an event is on.  Trashing single track really should never be allowed to happen again like CTS3 last year.   If there's a forecast of significant rain for an event, it should be left to the SMBC (State Mountain Bike Course), become a fireroad bash, or postponed.  400+ riders lapping in the rain will seriously damage almost any single track, no matter how sustainable we make it.

Offline DaveN

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2011, 07:49:02 AM »
Yeah it's a tough one, the park is there for all to enjoy but if money is put before the park it's not a good thing. Doesn't matter if it's a $1 or $1,000. Crits I'm not sure of the courses used but some areas should be off limits.

Parks Vic could decide based on BOM forecasts 2 or 3 days out if an event should be run. Other sports they will cancel in some weather conditions. Any business running and event should have a really wet weather plan.

Or the course is called out in advance and photos taken. If damage is done to the trails the cost of repair is taken out of a holding bond.

Flat fee should be added to any business, event, whatever as a minimum to go back to parks Vic.

Overall though I'm for well managed races/events out there whether it be MTB, Tri etc and would be great to even see more promoters running them at Lysterfield. So easy to access for most in Vic, there must be heaps of options to run more races.

Offline Alistair

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 09:05:25 AM »
Hi Andy,
Is this how we found out, on RB? Has there been any discussion with PV regarding who is responsible for cleaning up the trails if we have a repeat of CTS3? (probably not much danger with the dirt crits , as Wayne says, numbers are low and they tend to get called off if there is rain).

Offline Grant

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2011, 09:12:02 AM »
Hi Andy,
Is this how we found out, on RB? Has there been any discussion with PV regarding who is responsible for cleaning up the trails if we have a repeat of CTS3? (probably not much danger with the dirt crits , as Wayne says, numbers are low and they tend to get called off if there is rain).


I think thats the big question.... the organisers have to have some responsibility for cleaning/repairing if any is needed.

Offline Andrew

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2011, 09:13:08 AM »
Yeah Al,

I read...
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?230668-FGP-Dirt-Crits-Westgate-Melb-Thursdays-6-30pm/page10

LDTR should really put our position on Racing to PV.

Personally i don't think there should be money involved as @ 20K a kilometer, no promoter is going to put that kind of bond up :) and a couple of bucks here and there is gunna do nothing for anyone...

I will let my opinion wait until there are more opinions up.
 :P
 


Offline Grant

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2011, 09:23:08 AM »
Andrew,
Are you more concerned of LDTR's new trails getting destroyed or for the whole park in general?
Can you persuade Parks that some trails aren't ready for "competition traffic" therefor they don't get used?

Offline Andrew

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2011, 09:30:21 AM »
I am concerned about the whole park....

I just do not want history to repeat....

I am sure that we can convince PV what ever we decide on, as we have done well over 7000 volunteer hours in the last 2 years...

As long as we have thought out excately what we want, and documented it, i am sure it will be listened to.

Just to clarify, i am not against racing at Lysty, i am just asking the people that put all there free time into repairing the place, what there opinions on what we require from event promoters/ other clubs that want to run events.

If we don't formulate a plan to manage this, nothing will change...

Offline blackshw

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 10:38:16 AM »
I'm fine with events being run, in fact I can't wait for XC races to start again,  but I do think there should be a small % of each entry that goes to help maintain the trails.    There also needs to be a lot more care taken when weather turns bad when an event is on.  Trashing single track really should never be allowed to happen again like CTS3 last year.   If there's a forecast of significant rain for an event, it should be left to the SMBC (State Mountain Bike Course), become a fireroad bash, or postponed.  400+ riders lapping in the rain will seriously damage almost any single track, no matter how sustainable we make it.

Well put Lard. A few of us used to ride the crits @ Haeney Park and it was great fun and quite social. Selection of which trails to use for longer/larger events must be based around conditions when the event is held.

I'm sure most organisers would use a less damaging option in poor conditions if they were presented with some choices. When FTF used to run races at Lysty we discused the planned course and alternates with PV a couple of weeks prior and then reviewed immediately before the race.  On more than one occasion the route was adjusted immediately prior which is much better than having to cancel.

Offline Lynda

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 12:09:09 PM »
Some very good points being made here. My thoughts:

Events at Lysterfield are in general a good thing. I have participated (very socially!) in a few events at the park (CTS, Mountainbike orienteering), and have had lots of fun (also tempted to do a duathlon at one stage but chickened out).
Such 'participation' events are good for the MTB community as they encourage people from all backgrounds and skill levels to get out and have a go. There are also benefits for the club as others have said, in terms of opportunities to raise the club's profile, and maybe some fundraising too.

Having said that, such events need to consider not only other park users (of which there are many) but the potential impact on the park itself, in terms of both short and long terms benefits/negatives. I see a couple of potential areas that could be improved, mostly concerning the forms that are submitted as part of an application to hold an event.

1) More broadly, and extensively discussed in other forums (and LDTR's Draft Strategy), but an additional/review of existing 'trail levy', where a certain amount of money is diverted back to the upkeep of the trail network. Currently Licenced Tour Operators (LTOs) in Victoria pay $1.10 per head for an event which goes to the land manager, but in other states like NSW this fee is higher ($4.40). The fee is going up from 2013 to $2.40, see the application form for LTOs: http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/313143/LTO-Application-and-Renewal.pdf - but is still a small increase and is not specifically dedicated to repair/maintenance of the event area. A bond has also been thrown around as an option, but I think there would need to be clearer definitions about impacts that would break such a bond. 

2) Review of the criteria that assess impacts to the park could also be improved: in the LTO forms there is no mention of anticipated damage to trails arising from an event. Amending the application form to include 'environmental impacts' where the trail network is to be used as part of the event being proposed would allow more clear guidelines about what constitutes actionable damage arising from MTB events, and the appropriate actions to remedy the damage. This could also make it easier to introduce a bond?

3) Perhaps a more aggressive stance on the part of Land Managers regarding the section of the LTO licence that refer to suspension of licences by the Licensor(specifically Part 4, Section 6.2 d)) ? suspending a licence due to particularly bad weather preceding an event would certainly qualify as a reasonable action to preserve the environment.

Very broad brush stuff, but I think such issues are important in terms of long term solutions.

Offline DaveN

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 01:14:19 PM »
Usually events need to be insured don't they for injury etc I wonder if there's another option for any damages to the trail network. So back to your point Andy at $20k per a kilometre if they increased the cost of the ticket and per race it was only $1,000 for insurance but covered for $5k or $10k?

Really it would be to repair not build so not sure of the costs. But with an insurance company involved I think due care would always be needed which would hopefully mean always do the right thing by the trails.


Offline Matt

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2011, 01:21:43 PM »
Although it may not be popular, re-routing or cancellation will be easier than trying to get event managers to fork out for repairs.

I do think $ should be involved, as (my understanding) is that we are talking about private entities profiting from running events at the park.  I don't have the solution, but there should be some sort of reasonable make good for damage.  It gets further complicated though as make good involves time and not just $, which means the club could be left spending much of its time repairing damage caused by private entities, which is not reasonable.  Also, I don't have time to investigate it, but has anyone looked into what happens in other countries with more mature mountain bike scenes?

The hard truth is that as with everything today, it has to be viable, and if revenue from events + health and well being benefits from events is less than cost and hassle of repair, then PV should consider ditching events in the park other than small number events (I know that is not going to be a popular comment, but it is business basics as PV are responsible for the upkeep of the park and if it gets too hard and too expensive on an ongoing basis they may start to lose interest in supporting mountain biking in the park)

In terms of chatting with PV, all the points in the posts above could come together for discussion with PV (I don't think the club needs the solution at this stage, but should sit down around the white board with points for consideration, and try and nut out a path forward with PV).  Points for consideration seem to be:

  • Events are fine in principle
    Re-routing or cancellation may be easier than trying to get event managers to make good for repairs
    Consider making it front and centre in the agreement with event holders that PV (or delegate) will assess the trails on the day (as well as the weather forecast) and make a call, with redirection limited to Comm Games track or fire roads, or the event postponed if required
    Consider making it front and centre in the agreement with event holders that independent assessment of the before and after condition of the course will be undertaken, with the event holder responsible for make good of damage (this is a legal mine field with issues around who is sufficiently expert to conduct the before and after assessments, as well as assess the repair work, plus issues around defining repair/build standards for repair work and excessive wear / damage)
    Investigate whether there are any insurance products out there that would cover promoter damage, with cost passed on to promoters
    PV to consider increasing the per head trail levy, or introducing a flat fee to event holders and let them work out how to price it to participants - noting that flat fees may need to be tiered based on participant numbers
    To the extent possible, PV to ensure the trail levy or flat fee is redirected back into trail maintenance, as even all weather trails need maintenance
    PV and the club to nut out a sponsorship / promotions policy and consider working with the promoters to attract further sponsorship interest and direct that money back into the trails

...not sure what happened, but the points above were meant to be a nicely presented list of bullet points....
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 01:25:32 PM by Matt »

Offline labrat

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Re: Events at Lysterfield... opinion???
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2011, 03:08:53 PM »
I'm all for events at Lysterfield.

After seeing the huge improvement to trails, it's an ideal time to get the donation tin rattling and gather some more volunteers to build days :)

IMO, the reason why the trails were destroyed earlier in the year is that after 10 yrs of drought, poorly designed trails and an unprecedented amount of rain it was a recipe for disaster.

Now that you (Andrew, Olly and LDTR) have made such an improvement to trail design, maintenance and trail advocacy, I can't see any reason to deny the use of lysty for competitions..

Want to race at Lysterfield? Checkout the racing area!