LDTR

Members Discussions => Trail Etiquette => Topic started by: Davo on January 28, 2013, 11:38:38 PM

Title: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Davo on January 28, 2013, 11:38:38 PM
Before posting this I streched past my bedtime to catch up on previous posts about this topic. Some very good points made!

I have just come back from another very bumpy ride thru Lysty and cannot believe the pounding the tracks have copped since Dec!  it appears to me that some people don?t realize the amount of damage skidding the back wheel does to the track not to mention rubber! $$$
Please correct me if I am wrong with this theory.
Along with the other suggestions of signage I think signage highlighting this one would go a long way towards track preservation.

How does the committee/ Parks Vic feel about getting some signs made up with words like;

?SKIDS ARE FOR KIDS?,
?STAY IN CONTROL AVOID SKIDDING?
?IF YOU SKID YOU ARE OUT OF CONTROL?
?Preserve the track and your rubber, DONT skid?
I copied this one from another post; ?practice low-imapct riding [no skidding!],

And placing them at strategic points along the track such as corner entries.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Alistair on January 29, 2013, 08:18:51 AM
Do you think some tracks are worse than others for this?
I don't think we will ever stop skidding into corners, but maybe some tracks are more able to take it (e.g. blair: good vs hug: bad).
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Oliver on January 29, 2013, 08:36:03 AM
With so many beginners at Lysterfield it is part of the landscape.

Also having the trails real dusty the damage is very noticable.

I think this is part of the maintenance schedule we need to have at Lysty is to clean the drains and fix up braking ruts. Not too hard to do a crew of 6 can do a couple of trails in one build session.

But education is also good idea....
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Brossie (Tim) on January 29, 2013, 08:38:19 AM
Good points here. I would like to think that signage would help, but my guess is that there are riders that purposely skid, and signs aren't going to stop them.

I have also noticed the increase of "lazy" B lines staring to pop up again. This is so pathetic. If you are too lazy to ride the made tracks, stay out of the park. Lazy B lines are for the weak.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Davemcc on January 29, 2013, 06:10:12 PM
That's a bit harsh Tim, every second counts on strava.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Brossie (Tim) on January 29, 2013, 10:55:17 PM
I don't mind the trail getting rough and rutted, but its so frustrating to see lazy B lines go in. You try and put some logs to block them, but a week later, it's back.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Davo on February 03, 2013, 09:46:00 PM
Potholing more servere at berms bottom of Com games track, Snipe and more.
Can we get Parks Vic to drop some Lilydale toppings at each trail for us to spread?

Re: Lazy B lines. We'll dig some bigger logs in!
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: neb on February 03, 2013, 09:56:01 PM
Good points here. I would like to think that signage would help, but my guess is that there are riders that purposely skid, and signs aren't going to stop them.

I have also noticed the increase of "lazy" B lines staring to pop up again. This is so pathetic. If you are too lazy to ride the made tracks, stay out of the park. Lazy B lines are for the weak.


Yeah I agree that we will always get it with newbys and riders that like to skid. BUT I DO HATE how it ruins the flow on those fast tracks!?!?!?!

As Ol said we will have to deal with it but some education would be nice, perhaps a short vid? I think skid is for kids makes sense to me but maybe some riders don't even know that skids create those massive rutts?? So we may need to really spell it out for them.

I've been "pausing" my strava laps to stop and block some of the bigger B lines when I see them, keep at it! - I think the B lines also come from people riding in groups and making an overtaking maneuver on their mates, perhaps we need to provide some overtaking lanes? Like at the Mont 24??

Another thought I had on this issue is clip pedals V Flats.... Clip pedals make you ride corners more in control, as the consequence of not means eating dirt, not just dabbing a foot down. Where as in all the vids I've seen with flat pedal riders, they go out of their way to drift etc on every corner they can. Nothing against flat pedal riders and I'm sure not all of you do it, just an observation...

Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Oliver on February 04, 2013, 11:21:08 AM
Braking ruts will form over time and there is not much other than amouring that will help.

In regards to clips Vs Flats and cornering I do not think this has an influence. If you look at the riders at Lysty I would say 80% or more are clipped in and we still have errosion issues.

CJT berm entries are in a poor state but this could be fixed quickly. They will come back but hey with 150K plus trips through the park I think we have to live with it.

Speaking with Ben from MT Buller they are experiencing the same issues we have due to the amount of traffic that they are now receiving.

Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Matt on February 04, 2013, 02:28:50 PM
Re the B lines, I don't build them and don't agree with all of them, but if they are not hurting anyone, does it really matter?  They provide options and you can ignore them if you choose.  Some of them speed up the trail and improve the flow too.  Just because they weren't put there by the trail builders doesn't make them all bad by default.  I don't think they are big enough to worry too much about additional erosion either.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: neb on February 07, 2013, 08:45:08 PM
Copperhead is stuffed ATM, rides way better at the start of the season when it's not dusty and rutted.

Matt - re lazy B lines, the main issue is waterflow and the damage the water can do, when the trail is cut waterflow is a big priority to get right, stuff it up and you end up with crap trail that really suffers in wet weather, and even when it's dry it won't drain and will stay wet.

In some areas there are 3-4 B lines emerging, once one person does it they all do it. Then we have the issue of having less sustainable ST not to mention the ascetics that may * off other park user groups and cause us grief.

B
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Andrew on February 08, 2013, 08:35:28 AM
plus the other issue i have with "b lines" is athetically

It is hard to sell to PV or Greenies that MTB is low impact on the bush if there are multiple lines every where...

We need to leave as small a footprint as possible for advocates like me!
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Nick on February 08, 2013, 11:13:19 AM
Good points here. I would like to think that signage would help, but my guess is that there are riders that purposely skid, and signs aren't going to stop them.

I have also noticed the increase of "lazy" B lines staring to pop up again. This is so pathetic. If you are too lazy to ride the made tracks, stay out of the park. Lazy B lines are for the weak.




Another thought I had on this issue is clip pedals V Flats.... Clip pedals make you ride corners more in control, as the consequence of not means eating dirt, not just dabbing a foot down. Where as in all the vids I've seen with flat pedal riders, they go out of their way to drift etc on every corner they can. Nothing against flat pedal riders and I'm sure not all of you do it, just an observation...



Neb sorry mate but thats an iffy observation . In the vids they do that for dramatic effect. Otherwise you could argue that all flats riders do 8ft hucks and clear 40ft gaps too!
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Oliver on February 08, 2013, 11:35:35 AM
Dont we Nick  ;D
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Nick on February 08, 2013, 11:42:25 AM
another alternative to stop braking bumps is to re align the trail with more natural features and chokes that naturally slow the rider down before the corner..also re design the corners so the flow better.

There are too many corners at lysty that just appear at the end of a long straight stretch meaning that big handfuls of brake are required...fine for us but for someone new it can cause panic and skidding as they slam on the brakes.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: alf on February 08, 2013, 02:35:45 PM
Dont we Nick  ;D
Only those on Treks.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Matt on February 08, 2013, 02:47:45 PM
OK, I have been on holidays for a month and went for my first ride yesterday.  Even I was surprised with the number of lines cutting corners on Hug.  Seems little point constantly blocking them only to have them reappear, so perhaps some of the corners need to be opened up a bit for flow and control?   Could there be more filter obstacles, even on the main loop, to dissuade the truly hopeless? 
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: fireypete on February 08, 2013, 08:38:09 PM
On one hand we have a club wanting new membership and on the other hand we have a club with members bagging out learner burners.
Now from my point of view:
 "it appears to me that some people don?t realize the amount of damage skidding the back wheel does"
 Nope, i didn't. I watched people who seemed faster more competent at riding and copied them.
"If you are too lazy to ride the made tracks, stay out of the park. Lazy B lines are for the weak."
Is a "B Line" like a "chicken line" that skirts obstacles? As on "Follow Me"? Maybe a line that bypasses a jump on the trail?  I use those, hoping to get good enough not to one day.  But for now I'm learning and I think many people would get a little P'd off being told to get out of the park your too weak to ride here.
There are some good, balanced points made on this topic (esp. Matt)which outline the problem without blaming anyone.
I can understand the frustration BUT it is public land, anyone can wander in and ride in anyway they see fit.  By staying cool about it people who read this forum will become better informed and may want to become a member.  By blaming/bagging out any group, well it sounds a bit elitist.

Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Davemcc on February 08, 2013, 09:15:52 PM
I don't think anyone has criticized people for riding B lines.All the new tracks have and should have options to suit different skill levels.A lot of people have put a lot of time and effort into improving the trail network and are naturally protective of them.Lysty has changed a lot in 3 yrs for the better and as a group we need to look after our trails. Try not to skid,don,t ride when muddy and stick to the trails.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Oliver on February 08, 2013, 09:34:44 PM
I think we should clarify b lines.

B lines built to get around tech obstacles are a must for imba standards.

Short cuts throughout the trail network not cool....these are the ones that are attracting the negative comments

Agree with you Pete let's stay positive. And yes we would love a lot more members so we can build and improve our trail network.

Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Nick on February 11, 2013, 01:03:01 PM
We need some much larger obstacles to block these short cuts. Usually someone throws down a small branch or two which never works...Maybe we need some bigger logs etc
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Matt on February 11, 2013, 01:55:14 PM
Re the obstacles, we need to be a bit careful that in doing so we don't cause people to crash, particularly the less skilled that seem to need to cut corners.  Plus you do need to be able to pull  over or nip around in traffic.

I reckon it is a bit dodgy sticking stuff in the grass - my 8 year old ran a few cm wide on a corner on Blair, there was a branch right next to the track, he clipped his front wheel, had a death wobble, went over the bars and broke his wrist.  Plus, what happens when any of us need to pull over suddenly because a newbie is riding the middle of the trail and is unable to give way or unaware of the need to?  It's us that likely goes down.  It happened to me - a half dead newbie wobbling all over the show and he ran wide in the corner rather than staying left, and although I had already slowed and pulled left, I had to ride right into the bush to avoid a t-bone.  There were hidden branches in the bush and the bike and I went down, but thankfully not badly.  So my personal view is that deliberately putting stuff in the grass next to the trail is a dumb idea.  Remember the grass gets pretty long at times too.

It is not a fantastic idea, but could we have a modest size, clear sign at the trail heads that simply says please ride the formed trails and try not to shortcut or skid?  In smaller print below, it could say that unless we minimise our footprint we risk trails being closed.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: neb on February 11, 2013, 02:13:01 PM
  By blaming/bagging out any group, well it sounds a bit elitist.


[/quote]

Just on that note, to find a cure you have to find the cause. That's what this discussion is about, the main user group that has been earmarked as an issue is newbys, suggested fix = education. Great! :)The language used may be strong, but that's because emotions are involved and those that put in the hard yards do feel a sense of ownership of the park. I will do my best to keep it level but some times I like to have a *:P

Also on my Flat V Clip note, it was just an observation in order to find a cure. I think maybe as a group SOME flat pedal riders may skid as that's what they see in the vids... Monkey see, Monkey do - Pete's experience (as a new rider) seeing faster riders skidding and hence thinking that is how you go faster is another example.

Nick re bigger logs - it just requires more hands on deck to move them, when I stop to block them up I'm on my own so grab what I can manage. But I think that's a good idea, and it will make it much more permanent.

Matt - most MTB areas use logs and rocks to keep people on course. The sign won't help IMO, having track closed signs during last winter didn't stop many. Everyone has to ride in control and accept some risk in the sport we're in, MTBing is harder and much more risky than riding a concrete bike path. When people stack they very quickly try to blame other things/people (I tried to when I last stacked!) but in the end you put yourself there and you need to ride in control. (I lost concentration and stuffed up in the end, I would have preferred to land on a marshmallow but I landed on a berm, I don't blame the berm)

B
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Oliver on February 11, 2013, 02:26:46 PM
Hi Matt,

I am not a fan of sticks on the side of a trail either.....but if they were to be used to block off a straight line these would be clearly visable. Also having rocks etc to direct traffic through is a good idea as long as they are clearly visable. 

I must stress though that if you run off the trail that you will run the risk of coming off. Dave run off the main line on Red gum and broke his hand, he is one of the more skillful riders I know but things do happen out on the trail and even higher chances if you go off the main line. Going off the trail when passing or crossing paths with other riders also helps create extra straight lines, if everyone moved to the side of the trail in most cases you can pass without having to go off into the scrub. (riders must slow down for this to happen)

When you go out and ride you should always ride within your limits and when you do go past them their is a chance that you might come off. I am a perfect example of this  ;D

I have been taken out by newbies and taken myself out but I do ride knowing these risks.

Neb: I do think conversation is good but emotions should not be brought into them if at all possible, I like this thread as it gives us ideas on what people like and require when building trails. Keep up the comments because as a club we need to get more info on how to build the trail network.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Nick on February 11, 2013, 02:27:31 PM
Actually just want to say it not always new riders that skid...i recently followed a guy down cornhill at Mt Buller who skidded every corner! Yeah great cheers for the dust! He was in full kit and on a rather nice bike too...all the gear etc etc. Im also partial to the huge drifty slide but i promise only on the fire roads - never on the trail.

Maybe we do need a 'skids are for kids' sign...

I think realignment is a good and permanent although labour intensive solution. A great example is on the com games descent where there is a huge shortcut after a rolling grade dip and subsequent rise on the first section from trig point. You know the one?

The problem is the layout of the track at that point invites you to boost into the rise to get air etc. On the other side is a turn that is hardish to make..especially with the loose surface. People then just continue straight on over the grass. I know as ive done it heaps of times...caught me unawares and ive had to just steam straight on rather than wash out and eat rock. The solution at this example would be either to straighten the landing following the desire line or to tweak the entry to the rise to slow folks up so you would have more control on the downslope.

It would be nice at the next trail build (that i can make) to take a hit squad out to all these shortcut points and try and come up with some simple solutions to put it into the to do list.
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: Matt on February 11, 2013, 02:58:17 PM
Neb, I hear you, but there is no point everyone getting excited about it, as it won't fix it.  I think you are probably right about the sign.  I know I rarely read signs.  I guess the point is visibility of anything stuck in the grass.   Everyone knows riding is dangerous, but the less accidents the better, as it brings unwanted attention from governing powers (plus it hurts).  Remember we were all crap once - I still pretty much am. 

Re the cause, I know it has been mentioned, but from my observation group rides (and I don't necessarily mean the club ones), seem to be more liberal in their approach to saying hi, giving way, and sticking to the original trail. 
Title: Re: Track corrosion & potholling
Post by: fireypete on February 11, 2013, 04:41:37 PM
You know, all this trouble started when Aussie Disposals ran out of land mines  ;)